Melvin Adekanye is the founder of JamSocial, which helps introverts connect at events with icebreakers that make networking feel like a fun game. This conversation is about something many of us experience but rarely discuss—feeling disconnected, even when we’re surrounded by people.
Melvin works at the intersection of technology, psychology, and events, helping people, especially introverts, feel more at ease starting real conversations. We discuss networking, loneliness, the role of technology, and why sometimes a small nudge is all it takes to help people connect.
The interview is below, followed by a transcript, lightly edited for clarity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3X2SskoGY
Yohay Elam (01:36) Thank you for watching or listening. Welcome to another episode of the Reach Out series, where we explore the intersection of human connection, technology, and mental well-being. I’m Yohay Elam, founder of TouchBase, an app that tackles loneliness by helping foster meaningful connections.
And today I have here Melvin Adekanye, founder of Jamsocial, helping introverts actually connect at events with icebreakers that make networking feel like playing a fun game. Thanks for coming, Melvin.
Melvin (From JamSocial) (02:11) Thanks for having me.
Yohay Elam (02:14) So, Melvin, you work at the intersection of events, psychology, and technology, helping people who don’t naturally thrive at networking events actually connect. I often have that trouble. Before we get into JamSocial, I’d like to start a bit with you. Where did you grow up, and what kind of social environment shaped you early on? ⁓
Melvin (From JamSocial) (02:39) Once again, thanks for having me. It’s so interesting because now I live in Canada, and I originally grew up in Nigeria. Nigeria is a very ⁓ social atmosphere where you can be walking on the street, and somebody can start a conversation with you. But moving to Canada, you start to realize that things are a bit different. It takes a bit more effort to connect with people. And that really starts to show at events. But from my background, coming from a country where
people are very social, very free-flowing. Moving to Canada, where people are a bit more reserved relative to what it was like in Nigeria.
It didn’t help that I also have a computer science background, and if you know anything about computer science, you’re basically indoors in the basement coding all the time, and connecting with people becomes a little bit more difficult. So I really had to make an emphasis to reach out and connect with people outside of my social circle.
Yohay Elam (03:41) So do you feel that working in IT and in front of a computer made you more of an introvert? Do you personally identify as an introvert? Or when did you realize that these kinds of networking events don’t work the same way for everyone?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (04:04) It wasn’t until I got into university, actually, because when you get into university, you’re in a way kind of forced to connect with everybody, right? So I was in a setting where we would occasionally have these social networking events, and I started realizing, like, wow, some people have a way harder time trying to strike up a conversation without seeming awkward, right? And that’s when I knew, okay, this is interesting. I wouldn’t identify myself completely as an introvert.
I can be extroverted when I need to be, but I’m also totally fine just being alone at home, doing my own thing, right? So I have to force myself in order to be more extroverted. And I feel like being in the IT space definitely enables that. And I feel like because it enables that, I have to go the extra mile to make connections, to step out of that comfort zone, right?
Yohay Elam (05:00) So it takes more effort than usual. So you had this personal friction, you said at university, and then you took a step forward. Let’s talk a bit about Jamstotial. How did it come into existence? What was the first problem you were trying to solve?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (05:26) It’s good that this comes up. know that you are also in Europe. And I also had a chance to do a study abroad program in Europe. And while I was in Europe, specifically the Netherlands, I found it almost impossible to talk to anybody. Not just because there was a language barrier. Mean, most people speak English. But it was also kind of difficult to find third spaces where you can actually go socialize and talk to people. And while I was there, I realized this is so hard.
There were more opportunities to meet other people my age. And it so happened that I was randomly strolling the streets, and I came across this sign, and this sign said something like, ” Meet five other people for coffee. It’s something like that. And I remember seeing that sign, and I was like, ” What the heck? I wish I had seen this when I first came because I would have loved to try it out. But at this time, this was like my final week, and I was moving back to Canada. So I came back to Canada, and I was like, I wonder…
if other people here feel the same way. I wonder if there are people here who want to connect with people but are having a hard time finding those opportunities in third spaces, too. So it was like, you know what, let me host an event so I can see if people would come out and meet new people. So I hosted this event, and to my surprise, there were like,
there were like 70 plus people who turned up and the whole idea behind the event was to meet new people. And when they came out to the event to connect, I started noticing that there were some people in the room who were basically on their phone, of, you know, people being awkward, they’re being a little bit shy. And I was like, in my mind, I was like, what the heck? The whole idea behind this event is to meet new people. But despite being here, they’re having a hard time meeting and talking to people.
And I was like, well, let’s come up with something to solve this problem. And that’s when I brought my IT background and coded up a quick game to help people connect. And that quick game has become Jam Bingo, a way people can strike up conversations. But that was really the start of it. It was like I was hosting my own thin,g and then people were not connecting. And I was like, there has to be a better way for people to break the ice. So I ended up making my own solution for my events. And that’s really how it started.
Yohay Elam (07:46) I hear you, that resonates with my background. thought, it should be something to help people connect, in my case, with people they already know in your case, with people at networking events. Yeah, that was, I guess that was the moment when you saw people make the effort to show up to your event, but.
They were on their phones. That was the moment you thought I should do something about it, I guess. When I assume you were working on it on your own. Mean, the idea came to you, but when you first described this idea to others, how did people react? What convinced you that it wasn’t just a personal issue, but more of ba roader one?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (08:17) said.
Interesting. When I first described the issue, I felt like the first time I ever really described the issue was at this event. How do you help people connect? And because I was fortunate enough to have the prototype ready to go and people got to try it out, I think I really got to see people’s genuine feedback because people would play the game. They would be like, wow, this is the most amount of people I’ve talked to at an event, or they would say things like, this
the most fun event I’ve been to. And in my mind, I was like, okay, that’s interesting. But then I would go to other events that didn’t have the game and I would try to network so I would try to make connections so people would, you know, get to know more about what we’re doing. And when I would talk to people, they would say, ” Hey, I would love to use something like that because it’s so challenging to talk to people you don’t know, right? So I think for me, that was the moment where I knew, okay, people are reacting to this in a way.
where they’re like, I identify with the problem of how do you talk to people you don’t know? And I would really appreciate a solution that would help me initiate that conversation or start a new one, make a new connection with someone at an event. And that’s when I knew, okay, this is something that people resonate with, and this is something to explore a little bit more.
So the whole idea behind Jam Bingo is, like, how do you get people who are physically in the room to talk to each other? Because most of the time it feels like there’s a wall. The game’s premise is that it gives you conversation prompts or challenges that force you to talk to someone new. So the way it works is people come out to the event, they’re having a good time, and then the host announces that we’re gonna play a game. So then everybody scans the code to play and then they get a unique conversation.
It could be find somebody wearing the same shirt color as you. Or could be ask someone what success means to you. And the prompts are things the organizer actually gets to use, so they can add their own questions to the game. So now it gets people to go up to someone else and say, “Hey, the app is telling me to ask you what success means to you.” Would you mind telling me what success means to you? And then it would, in a way, force that connection to happen that otherwise would not. And then they would
connect with that person to unlock the next prompt, and the whole idea is for you to keep unlocking the next prompt until you complete all your prompt,s and by then you’re the winner but the real win is being able to talk to people and being able to connect with new people that you otherwise would not have been able to.
Yohay Elam (11:19) amazing. People come to others, saying, ” Well, the app told me to ask you that. mean, sort of leaning on an external force. But from there on, the connection takes the life of its own, I guess.
Melvin (From JamSocial) (11:34) Exactly. You’re 100 % right, like it gives people that initial excuse to connect. And once they connect, magic happens from there, right? Once people start talking, they start talking.
Yohay Elam (11:45) Yeah. Well, you’ve been to quite a few networking events. And what patterns do you see repeating there over and over? I think you described a bit of people on their phones. But what else? Is there anything else that you see there?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (12:00) mean, the thing that strikes me the most, but at the same time, I think it’s human nature, is that people tend to hang around people they already know, which is kind of ironic, because you go to a networking event to meet new people, but most of the time, as most people probably see, when they go to an event, they tend to just stand in circles of people they already know. They kind of have the same conversations. And the people who I see make the most of networking events are the ones who are super extroverted, the ones who can literally go up
to any group, go up to any individual, and you know, they break the ice naturally because they’re just, they have more repetition, they have more practice.
But the most common thing I usually see is actually the people who are introverted, the ones who stand on the edges, who are kind of looking at their phone or sipping a drink, or the ones who are just standing in a circle so they feel like they’re part of the conversation, although they may not really be networking, but they just want to be a part of the circle without really conversing. So that’s what I see the most and it’s quite sad because networking events are a great opportunity for
people to advance their career, to advance their business, and one connection could literally be the difference between making the next big step in your career or making the next big step in your business, but the fear of, like, what do I say, or would I be rejected, stops people from doing that.
Yohay Elam (13:29) What I’ve been told in many cases is just walk up to somebody and talk. it’s easy in theory, but not always in practice. So why is it unrealistic for so many people? Is it because they’re shy or afraid of rejection or maybe something else that you’ve noticed?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (13:49) think it’s a little bit of shyness, but I also think we need more
The more practice we have, the more comfortable we feel. ⁓ Actually, I have quite a funny story actually. I went to, like, it was like a big networking event, and I did what you said, which was to go up to somebody, introduce yourself, but I did it in kind of a fun, challenging way. I basically walked around the event, introduced myself, and said, “Hi, my name is Bill Gates.” But it was like an icebreaker because I would say, hi, my name is Bill Gates, and they would be like,
” This person’s then they would hear Bill Gates, and they’re like wait a minute, this guy’s not Bill Gates. It would ease the tension because they’re like, ” My name is and then they would say a famous person, but then we would eventually connect, right? Still, I did that had to do that like six or seven times before I eventually met one of my really good friends now he actually laughed about it. Years later, we stayed connected because of that initial connection, so I think.
I think having that repetition to introduce yourself, but not being afraid of, like, will people accept or reject me for just saying, hey, hi, my name is Melvin, can we get introduced? I think repetition really helps build that confidence.
Yohay Elam (15:09) Is one piece of good advice? And is there any other good advice or things to avoid, conversation starters or moves that you’ve seen that absolutely fail?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (15:24) Yeah, mean, moves that absolutely fail. I think not really being yourself. Think about people: sometimes when they go to networking events, they’re in a state like, “How do I get accepted?”
But when you’re in that state of how do I be accepted, you portray yourself in a way that is actually showing who you think they want you to be rather than who you actually are. And I think that’s the first step is like when you show up to an event, I think it’s really good to show up in a way where it’s like, hey, this is who I am. And I’m looking to connect with people who also identify with.
values that I have, the work that I’m trying to do. I think when we show up authentically, it’s easier to connect with people than when we show up as someone we think other people want us to be. Then we start to run the risk of, like, you know, faking it and not really making those real connections. The other thing too, think common mistakes is like, just practical. It’s like, you know, dress in a way that makes you stand out, dress how you
Dressed to make a good first impression, but also dressed in a way that makes you identifiable. So people can look and say, ” Hey, who’s that person? I’d love to go talk to them. That’s something that actually someone I know from the States, whose name is Megan. She writes about in her blog, it’s like, how do you dress so you can stand out and be unique? ⁓
Yohay Elam (16:54) Makes sense, yeah, but I guess the same advice that you mentioned earlier applies, where you should dress to stand out, but something you feel comfortable with is you. And I like the idea of ⁓ don’t fake somebody who you aren’t, because what’s the point?
Okay, let’s move on to technology. When technology enters social situations, people often worry about it, and that it could make things artificial. How do you see it?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (17:39) Yeah, mean, technology is definitely a huge part of our business because we literally use people’s phones, the very thing that is used to isolate people. And we use that in a way that helps them make in-person connections. And originally, when we first started out, we encountered a bit of a friction point because people were always like, well, this is a no-technology type of event. We want people to be able to just talk to each other. And that was the initial friction point.
But then we realized, okay, maybe that’s not really our market. Our market is actually the place where people are okay with using tech.
But they also want tech to be a tool for connection rather than for isolation. And I think as we continue to develop in the future, if we can start thinking about technology in a way that allows people to connect rather than enabling isolation, I think that’s going to be tremendously huge. And I know even with touch base, that’s exactly what you’re doing is how do you get people to connect? ⁓
and think, hey, I haven’t reached out to this person. I should probably go check in on them. Like, it’s a way that enables me. I’m looking at my phone when I see a notification. And it’s like, hey, remember the connection with. Now, that’s how you use technology in a way that helps people connect
as opposed to ways, I mean, you’re more familiar with social media. Social media is very good at isolating people and making comparisons. That’s not really how people connect. People connect when they actually get to talk, and how to use technology to help people talk in a meaningful way.
it helps people actually connect at events it helps them it gives them the excuse to connect with somebody new as opposed to sticking with people they already know I think that’s one thing that we do really well and the other thing that we do really well I mean technology also enables other things it also enables the event organizer to see analytics of like how do people actually connect how was my events how did my
⁓ impact the people who attended. So being able to see how many connections everyone walks away with, and what type of conversations people have. Think technology allows us to show that data, but also, you know, it helps people actually make that first step of like, ” Hi, my name is Melvin, the app is asking me to ask you what your favorite ice cream flavor is. Okay we talked about ice cream flavor now tell me a little bit more about who you are.
gives that initial step in the right direction.
Yohay Elam (20:25) Yeah, it’s amazing, and yeah, I use technology for that, the most important thing to make it easier to take the first step, and as you said, also for organizers to get some kind of feedback on how things are working.
And one of the things that your app helps with in networking events is related to, of course, connection, but also loneliness and modern lives with our phones. So ⁓ yeah, there are many cases when people feel lonely, even when surrounded by others.
Why does it happen that people feel alone when surrounded by others?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (21:06) It’s an interesting phenomenon because it’s quite ironic that you can be in a place full of people, yet still feel alone. And I think part of the reason why people feel alone, even though they’re surrounded by people, even though they may be talking about people, is because they don’t actually feel seen, they don’t feel understood, they don’t feel like other people around them actually know who they are.
I think this happens for a lot of reasons when we pretend to be somebody we’re not or when we pretend to be someone who we want others to see us as, rather than who we actually are. So I think that adds to it. But also, I think a lot of it has to do with actually showing up in a way that people get to know who we really are. I think that goes a long way in…
helping us feel less lonely. But as a society, we think we have a lot of technology that aids people to be on their own, to be alone, to feel like they don’t need anyone else. And I very much see that as a huge contributor to why people feel lonely, even though they’re surrounded or have a lot of followers or people like their post. But people don’t really get to know who they are. I think people who…
When people get to know who we are, we feel seen, understood, heard, and not alone.
Yohay Elam (22:32) feel exposed, we feel more connected. I feel that social media, with the culture of Instagram, of showing off, or LinkedIn posting, or whatever, ⁓ that’s been around for a few years. I feel there’s a new phenomenon of
with all these amazing AI tools which I try to work, explore every day, but I think in some ways creating a bit of a culture of do it yourself, which I’m not against do it yourself, having skills is good, but if you can ask the AI tool for help with coding or help with connection or anything life related.
You perhaps think you don’t need real three-dimensional humans. What do you think?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (23:26) And that’s the sad part, isn’t it? It’s kind of like an irony of…
The more independent we get, the lonelier we feel. And I think it’s super interesting because even though I went to Europe and I had an opportunity to see what a different life was like, I’ve also been to different parts of the world that maybe we would consider third world. But going to countries where I got to see people who had to walk for an hour just to get clean drinking water, you start to realize that there are different levels of what it means to
to advance or to be, there are different levels to life. I think that when we go to countries where they’re more dependent on each other, you don’t necessarily see the same kind of loneliness we see in countries that are far more developed because they actually rely on each other. They heavily rely on community, knowing each other, and talking, and that helps. But it’s kind of ironic because the more developed we get, the less reliant we are on other people and the more comfortable we
feel staying in our own bubble with the people who think like us, with the people who like us, with the people we like. And the more we stay in that, the less we actually connect with other people
the more we feel distant and I think AI is an interesting phenomenon because I mean, why would I go talk to my friend and tell them how my day was when I could basically rant to ChatGPT on text and I could say, this person did this thing and ChatGPT would say, ⁓ you’re totally correct. You should totally feel this way. And ChatGPT is gonna agree with whatever I say. Why would I go talk to someone else who would challenge my thoughts? So it’s interesting, but I’m curious.
Do you think? I feel like ⁓ with what you’ve seen, how would you see people interacting with AI, and how does that lead to loneliness?
Yohay Elam (25:24) Yeah, mean,
In my circles, I don’t have people having an AI companion. At least, they are not admitting it. But I’ve heard about the phenomenon. think again, if technology can help you.
prepare for real-life interactions, and you only spend a limited time using the AI companion. Maybe it’s helpful, but eventually, I think you have to put yourself out there like the people who come to your networking events. The big step came from them to show up. And then you just take them the extra mile to ignite that initial connection at the event, but it’s still three-dimensional people.
So yeah, like with everything, there is time to be used and time not to be used. So it’s easy to get into the rabbit hole of using only AI or spending all your time on social media.
I personally think that even small human connections like meeting, saying hello, and having a small chat with the person at the cashier at the grocery store or the bakery, that small connection can be more enriching, more
giving a sense of community, more than just ⁓ talking with the machine. don’t know. How was your experience? What do you think?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (26:58) And I think that definitely goes back to the whole, when you get to know people and when people get to know you, you feel more connected. And you’re definitely right. Like initiating those, in a way, it’s like small talk, but it’s a way to, hey, like I would like to get to know this person a little bit more than just someone who scans my groceries as they’re putting them in the bag. I think that helps us feel more connected.
We start to relate to people when we realize this person is actually a lot like us, or that they also have this challenge. And that’s something that I really struggle with, especially when I first started out networking. Like you said, technology has its pros and cons. Initially, when I first started networking, before I actually went to real-life events, I would do a lot of online things. I would do a lot of LinkedIn. And I would go on LinkedIn and press Connect with everyone I saw.
It
became really hard to really get to know the people because the conversation was limited to just words on the screen. But when I started attending events, I would use both. would use, hey, LinkedIn. I would be like, hey, I see you going to this event. I just wanted to say hi. Looking forward to connecting in person. And it became like an additive, like a way to.
⁓ a way to connect, pre-connect before we actually connect, because when we got in person, it was like, by the way, we connected on LinkedIn. And that was my icebreaker, was like, hey, we already talked on LinkedIn, love to connect in person. And I think that goes back to getting to know people, using every little opportunity, and, like you mentioned, Touchpoint 2, to get to know them a little more.
Yohay Elam (28:43) That’s a great tip. Check out who’s going to the event. If that person is relevant, reconnect with them on LinkedIn, then that’s the icebreaker. Amazing tip. So we began touching a bit more networking, the world of work, LinkedIn. You’ve also seen JamSocial being used within organizations. What changes when colleagues connect beyond their immediate teams?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (29:12) so glad he brought this up because that is something that surprised me the most. Initially, when we first started, it was how do we connect people at networking events who don’t know each other. But we started to see a lot of companies that were using Jam Bingo, and it was quite surprising because these are people who literally spend every day together in the same space.
And it was interesting because it turns out that when people work in different teams, they actually don’t get to connect with people in other departments. So people in the marketing team probably don’t really talk to people in the IT. They probably say, hi, hello in the elevators, but they don’t actually get to relate.
But actually, what we started seeing is that people started, people at these companies would use JamBingo as a way to actually get those departments, different departments to connect because they started to realize, hey, actually maybe it is good for Jim and IT to also talk with Melissa Marketing because it gives them a different perspective.
on how different pieces of the company function together and allows them to know, if I know IT is doing this, it also allows me to do my role in marketing a little bit better because now I have someone I can touch, I can touch base with, which is how companies work. Companies aren’t just individuals. Companies are groups of individuals who work together. And there’s no better way to work together than to actually get to know each other and also get to, ⁓
relate to the company’s mission and values. So it was an interesting twist because, honestly, I didn’t really see it coming that companies would also use Jam Bingo, but actually, they do because it provides value in the sense of getting departments to connect together.
Yohay Elam (31:01) sense. I worked as a product manager. had to ⁓ diffuse rivalries, well, rivalries, different interests between, let’s say, the user experience team and marketing. They pulled in different directions
Melvin (From JamSocial) (31:16) I definitely would not doubt that it has an impact on company performance because, at the end of the day, people are the ones who drive the company. And the more connected they are, the more they can accomplish. So I think it definitely has an impact. But in terms of raw numbers, I would definitely have to look into that.
Yohay Elam (31:36) Yeah, I also will dig into studies about it. Yeah, I think these kind of relationships at work, some of them become deep friendships because you a lot of time together and maybe you have a lot in common with that person, but some are a bit more, it’s called now, friendships. mean, sort of very small points of touch.
But there is also a value to that.
Melvin (From JamSocial) (32:02) It’s a very interesting dynamic in friendships. I think friendships are a little different because they’re built on how well you connect with people. For me, I like to think of friends as people who, this was something someone said to me, and I think it made a huge impact, but friends are people who you see yourself in, who you see a little bit or maybe a lot of yourself in them. And I think when you start asking someone, like, “Why are we friends?” They start to actually describe
a lot of qualities they have that they see in you, which is quite an interesting phenomenon, right? So think friendships and work relationships are a bit different. I think what we focus on primarily is how we get that work relationship beyond just fake pleasantries, but how we get people to know a little bit more about each other? Perhaps they can take the next step into becoming friends, but we take it to the step where people have the excuse to learn more about
each other, rather than it feeling a little bit like…
like forced or maybe feeling a little bit fake, but it’s genuine. It’s like, hey, go find someone in the marketing department and ask them what was the most challenging part of this quarter. And it gives them an opportunity. Hey, I get to learn more about Melissa in the marketing department. And that helps me understand their role. And if I take an interest in Melissa, it could be like, hey, Melissa also is interested in pets. Maybe I also have a pet. Maybe we can connect on a friendship level in that way. But the primary thing is, how do we connect?
people to learn more about each other in terms of work, and then they could take a step further if they’d like.
Yohay Elam (33:43) sense. Yeah, I sometimes lose patience when people talk about the weather. It seems like unnecessary small talk. And I find that sometimes if I tell something half-personal about myself, you mentioned a pet, I have a huge hobby, running. So I tell them about my weekend run and how I struggled or whatever.
Melvin (From JamSocial) (33:51) You
Yohay Elam (34:08) It already sort of is, that’s already a connection. mean, even if that person doesn’t run, there’s something to relate to which is not, I mean, super superficial. So I find that, would you do something like that at a networking event? ⁓
to tell someone about something that’s half-personal, or is there any other advice? I mean, is the networking event apart from using your app ⁓ to find those icebreakers?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (34:45) 100 %, and you know what, I even take it a step further. think saying things are half personal makes you feel more human compared to people who you know who pretend or You know because you can relate more with a person but I also like asking questions about people and I find that works really well because People really like to talk about themselves and if you can ask them questions, I get them to talk about themselves then There’s it’s it makes it easier for you to connect with that person
So
Actually, that would be another tip: ask people questions, but I wouldn’t ask questions like “Hey, do you have a pet?” or “How many?” How do you feel about the neighborhood you live in like I wouldn’t ask questions like that I would ask questions more like hey, what is something? Maybe I know they’ve been working in this industry for like 10 plus years, I can say hey, based on what you know now. What is something you wish you had known when you first started your career? And it gives them an opportunity. It’s like, I mean who else is
asking them a question like that. But now it gives them the opportunity to think, ⁓
Actually, yeah, what is something I wish I knew when I first started? And it gets, and it makes you learn a bit more about them because, you know, they open up a bit more. They’re not just like, the weather is good today, but they’re actually telling you something from their personal experience. And I find that really works really well in breaking the ice. I mean, there lots of questions like these. So the more people use it, I think the better, the more, the easier it is for people to connect, but maybe don’t use it too much.
Because then every single time I’ll have to be thinking about ⁓ what I wish I first known.
Yohay Elam (36:28) Yeah, maybe have a list of questions which are sort of in the middle between not too superficial but not too intimidating or too personal, I guess. I like to ask lots of questions, and I sometimes catch myself stopping myself late. I think I’m interrogating that person. ⁓
Melvin (From JamSocial) (36:56) Hahaha
Yohay Elam (36:59) So, for me, when somebody asks me questions back, say, “OK, OK”-there’s a bit of mutuality here. So I’m probably not interrogating too much,
I mean, when I go to events, and they feel I’m struggling to find conversations or I can get out with a headache or I don’t know, mean, or.
I don’t ignite. I get stuck. ⁓ For me, it’s a failure unless I find, I mean, if I have one interesting conversation, then I say, OK, that’s good enough. It was worth going to that event. That’s my way of redefining successful networking events.
People who, I mean, I think some introverts would go to a few of these events, struggle to find conversations, and then stop going to these events because they feel all of them are a failure. Is there a way to redefine it for introverts that would make them feel, I mean, okay, this is progress? It wasn’t a waste of time. I did something positive today for myself.
Melvin (From JamSocial) (38:14) I see what you mean. think success really is different for everybody because everyone’s on a different journey, at their own level of introversion. I’ve been on my journey of doing Jam Social. I hosted two events that I remember the most because those two events had two people who exemplify, like a true introvert, to an extreme degree. The first event was when this lady
was networking; they were playing the game. And this lady, she was like, she fell a little, it fell a little bit off. was like, are you okay? Like, are you doing okay? Because she was just like, like I thought she was in like a distress or something. So I went up to her, I said, hey, are you okay? And she’s like, yeah, I’m okay. This is the most I’ve ever talked to anybody. And I asked her, like, what she meant. And she’s like, well, actually, I don’t really leave the house that much. And I’m trying to
challenge myself to go to one of these every few months. And she’s like, and I was like, okay, and she’s like, yeah, like, I enjoy this one, it’s the game is helping. And if people are a little bit more open to talking. And, and that was success for her because she only goes to these ones, like once every few months. And this was like a huge step compared to where she was. Now take that for someone like me, maybe I go to events more frequently than she does. Success looks
a bit different for me because success isn’t necessarily just talking to one person but maybe success is actually hey can I book a meeting or we have an intro call so that way we can we can do business so I think success depends on where you’re initially starting from and I think you have to look at hey this is where I’m you have to first know where you currently are at and I set goals that are relative to where you’re starting from rather than
I don’t think there’s really a baseline of what success means for everybody, but I think for you as an individual, based on where you’re coming from, I think you can set progress bars.
Initially, we used AI to help come up with these conversation icebreakers because, when you open the app, it says to ask someone what success means to them and what they’re most proud of this year. So those were initially AI-generated. But what we started realizing is we started realizing that every event is different. And actually, some people at these events like using their own questions,
questions that relate to the event that they’re hosting. So maybe actually a question like what does success mean to you is a great question, for this specific event, they’re more interested in asking people, hey, what is the biggest challenge in your marketing department? We are looking for ways to integrate AI into use cases like that, but initially,it was a great way to get a general set of
questions that can break the ice. But as we got into it, we started realizing that perhaps we need something a bit more robust that tailors to people’s specific events.
Yohay Elam (41:33) make sense, making things more personalized towards the humans that are actually there. Got it. OK. ⁓ After everything you’ve seen and built, what’s one belief about human connection that you now hold very strongly?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (41:57) This is the kind of question I would use on a networking app. I mean, well, let me think about it, perhaps maybe. Yeah, I mean, with touch base, touch base is more focused on that individual connection of like, how do you get people to connect with their existing network? So I’m curious to hear what you think and maybe that could help jog some thoughts from me.
Yohay Elam (42:25) Yeah, actuall,y I do have an answer to that question. I learned that we underestimate how much reaching out to us makes somebody feel good. I felt it personally before I began building the app. I felt sort of a positive rush when I reached out, when people reached out to me. And then when I began working on the app, I found out that there are many studies that demonstrate that we tend
to underestimate the positive impact reaching out has on the receiver. So that’s one ⁓ belief based in science about human connections that is now one of my guiding principles in my work at TouchBase.
Melvin (From JamSocial) (43:12) That’s a great point.
And I think you’re right, even thinking of my personal life when people reach out of the blue, it kind of catches me by surprise. It’s like this person was thinking about me, and it does make me feel good. And I think there are parallels to jam, although we’re not necessarily reminding people to reach out, but I think we’re helping people overcome that fear of walking up to somebody new.
And I think something that I’ve learned from doing what I’ve done is that when you give people an opportunity to connect, the people who benefit most are the people who are searching for it the most. So the introverts in the room, the people.
Overlooked when you go to an event, you’re definitely not looking their direction, you’re looking for someone else. Those are the people who benefit most, and those are the people who, at the end of these events, are always like, this is one of the most fun networking events I’ve been at because people actually got to meet people rather than just looking at my phone or.
drinking a few drinks at this event. So that’s what I’ve learned: when you give people an excuse to connect, they will take it.
Yohay Elam (44:30) That’s a great thing and very encouraging, I assume, for many introverts out there. There are many people who struggle at networking events. So that’s good news. Looking ahead, what excites you most about the future of ⁓ intentional connections?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (44:51) What excites me most is technology.
It’s kind of ironic because I think as technology continues to advance, more people will seek in-person connections. And we’re starting to see it even now, I think, with the rise of AI-generated video, with the rise of AI bots. I think people want to know that when they’re talking to someone, they’re actually talking to a person, not just a bot. And I think people are intentionally going to start seeking out those in-person connections,
interactions. And that’s something that excites me most because we’re coming to a point where technology in and of itself is creating the opportunity for people to connect. Perhaps that wasn’t the initial focus, but it is a consequence of the online environment.
the sphere we’ve created, so I think people will seek out in-person interactions. And I think for us, as people who create technology to aid these in-person interactions, it puts us in an interesting position of how we can further use technology or how we can come up with different solutions to continue to help people in person to connect.
whether that is reminding them to touch base with someone else, helping them actually start a conversation, or helping them find events to go to. These industries are gonna start to see an uptick in people seeking them out because we’ve hit a point where, for me, I’m personally done with the whole online kind
world, and I want to be able to connect with people and actually know I’m talking to somebody real
Yohay Elam (46:43) going to have to continue using online tools and technology. That’s modern life. It helps. Yeah, the best thing technology can do for connecting with other people is just be an extension of our real life, enabling us to meet new people, stay in touch, or find a place to have a drink.
real people. Okay. ⁓ We’re nearing the close. Is there anything else you’d like to add to our listener’s message? Take away anything and insights.
Melvin (From JamSocial) (47:29) think we had a great conversation, and if there’s one thing I can leave with everyone, I think the best icebreaker is when you decide that you are going to be the person who goes and reaches out to someone who may be looking like they’re on their own.
I think that is the best icebreaker. ⁓ Maybe your event doesn’t necessarily have games or tools or things like Jam Bingo. Still, if you can be that person who says, I’m actually gonna take up the challenge to go introduce myself to someone who I see as I’m talking to someone else, I think that’s, we need more of those in the world because people who take that initiative are the people who become leaders and the people who set the pace of how networking events should be like. And if you’re the person who sticks to your friend group
You need to tell your friends we’re gonna go make new connections and not just stick together.
Yohay Elam (48:24) In general, more people moving out of their comfort zone and giving other people a chance, maybe, themselves a chance to meet these other people.
Okay, Melvin, so thank you very much for sharing your insights today. I had a great time talking with you. It was a fun ping pong, and I certainly learned a lot. I’m sure our listeners and viewers did so as well. Where can people learn more about your work, your initiatives, connect with you, and meet you in person?
Melvin (From JamSocial) (48:58) Well, it’s great. You can definitely learn more about what we’re doing on our website or on our social media. So our company name is Jamsocial. So it’s thejamsocial.com. We also have our social media. We’re active on almost all social platforms at Jamsocial. And if you want to meet me in person, perhaps you have to come to Canada. Let me know. And then we’ll set something up.
Yohay Elam (49:27) cold place, but it can make warm connections there.
Okay. Thank you very much, Melvin. Really super enlightening and energizing conversation, I for everybody. Okay, thank you very much.
Melvin (From JamSocial) (49:31) Thank you so much.
Thanks.
Yohay Elam (49:44) So this has been another episode of the TouchBase Reach Out series. As always, I will encourage you to download TouchBase, send me feedback, and tell me how you’re using it. And follow TouchBase on all the social handles. And I hope to see you soon. Thank you and bye-bye.
I’m Yohay Elam of TouchBase, an app that helps connect with loved ones through reminders and conversation starters.
TouchBase will attend Web Summit Lisbon on November 10-13. We, founder Yohay Elam and senior advisor Doron Gez will be in the Portuguese capital. Here are three key activities:
Tuesday: Doron and Yohay are organizing the TouchBase run, on November 11 at 7:30 AM in Praça do Comercio, bang in the center of town. Sign up here and get your cool TouchBase t-shirt.
Wednesday: We will have a booth, A6-01. Come visit us on November 12 and connect. Apart from talking about the app and discussing collaborations, we have some connection-related merch.
Thursday: Yohay will speak about the future of social media on at Web Summit’s Showcase event.
Art can have a role in healing, and AI can also be part of the solution. Eli Strzelecka, founder of Conspicuis, shares her personal story, her initiatives, and many things in between. This is part of the TouchBase Reach Out series.
The interview is below, followed by a transcript, lightly edited for clarity.
Yohay Elam (YE): Hi everyone. Thanks for watching or listening. Welcome to this latest episode of the Reach Out series, where we explore the intersections of human connection, technology, and mental well-being. I’m Yohay Elam, founder of TouchBase, an app that tackles loneliness by helping foster meaningful connections, not just any connections.
And today I’m thrilled to be speaking with Eli Strzelecka, the founder of Conspicuous and the mind behind the playful and thought-provoking Guild Gallery. We’ll discuss mental health, AI, loneliness, the role of shame, and how technology, art, and mental health can intertwine. Eli, thank you for joining us.
Eli Strzelecka(ES): Hey, good to be here. Thanks so much for having me. I’ve been really looking forward to this chat with you about AI and mental health. To me, our discussions are always enriching, and I hope we can shed some light for people who are struggling themselves or are just curious about the topic.
I’m personally very excited about the opportunities, and at the same time, of course, a little concerned about the potential harms that always come along with progress and innovation.
YE: Lots to talk about indeed. And I hope I pronounced your last name more or less correctly. Before we jump into today’s topics, I’d love to hear a bit more about you. Could you please introduce yourself and tell us how happiness became part of your professional journey?
ES: I think happiness should be part of everyone’s professional journey. Joke aside, up until my mid-20s I saw life as a series of tests to pass or fail. It was embedded in me that my worth would depend on how impressive my education, husband, and job were.
The golden standard was: become a lawyer, marry an engineer or doctor, have two kids before 30, buy a house. So I got two master’s degrees in law, I was in a long-term relationship with a future engineer—I did everything I thought I was supposed to do.
But doing everything right didn’t lead to feeling right. I went to a therapist, against my family’s wishes, to figure out what was “wrong” with me for not being happy. He helped me realize I needed to build a life I actually liked and make serious changes.
I love the story about Michelangelo being asked how he created the statue of David: he said he just removed everything that wasn’t David. That’s how I see my last decade—removing things that caused despair. And somehow I ended up here, building a mental health and AI company.
YE: Very interesting. You already touched on art and Michelangelo—we’ll come back to that later. But let’s dive into AI. Everyone is talking about it. From your perspective, how does AI impact mental health—both positively and negatively?
ES: Both chatbots and image-generation tools have incredible potential to improve mental health if used properly. LLMs can ingest a lot of valuable knowledge about mental health. There’s a myth that only humans can have meaningful mental health conversations—that’s not true.
I turn to AI for compression, advice, venting, brainstorming. It’s so efficient at helping with mental health that I worry about potential addiction. What I don’t want is a world where people stop cultivating meaningful human relationships.
Here’s an example: many people struggle with boundaries. They say yes when they want to say no, listen when they want to leave, and lose themselves in relationships. Then they withdraw to avoid conflict. I encourage them to ask AI how to set boundaries, deliver bad news, or handle difficult conversations. Relationships aren’t mystical—you can learn skills, and AI can help.
If you feel socially awkward, AI can teach you how to approach people, what to say, how to show interest. But it’s on us who build in this field to highlight positive use cases—because the risk of increased isolation is real.
YE: Yes, that resonates. What you said about canceling yourself in a relationship—romantic or with friends—that’s something I’ve experienced too. Back then there was no AI. Now we can use it, but as you said, in the right way.
AI is playing an increasing role in therapy bots, diagnostics, predictive analytics. Do you see any ethical red flags or limitations we should be aware of?
ES: The best way to use AI for mental health is under a therapist’s supervision. But not everyone can afford a therapist, and even if you can, the first one isn’t always the right fit, and the right fit now might not be forever. That’s why platforms like BetterHelp are great—you can try different therapists until you find one who clicks.
At that point, AI can supplement therapy. If you’re not currently seeing a therapist, AI can still help manage symptoms. But it will never replace human connection or the benefits of traditional therapy.
Ethically, we need to remember that AI models are trained on human-provided data, with the biases and limits of their creators. Think of how terrorist groups, cult leaders, conspiracy theorists already manipulate people. Imagine them building AI agents to preach to vulnerable populations. That’s terrifying.
We already live in an age of conflicting truths. We choose which media to trust. Now we’ll also need to decide which AI we trust—and to what extent.
YE: So trust is critical—not just in economics but also in choosing the right AI tool and using it alongside humans. Let’s shift to loneliness, which is central to TouchBase. What do you think are the main reasons people struggle with loneliness in today’s digital world?
ES: I think we need each other less and less. For example: I can wake up, work with AI, do yoga with YouTube, order lunch without meeting the delivery guy, entertain myself on Netflix, post online for likes, and then talk to AI about my feelings—all without seeing a person.
Gen Z grew up with social media. Their online personas often drift far from their real selves, setting impossible standards. We have fast food, fast fashion, fast dating—the easier it comes, the less we appreciate it. Everyone seems replaceable, with something “better” always one click away.
That’s why I love solutions like TouchBase—using tech to remind people to connect. Our lives aren’t designed for nurturing long-term bonds anymore. That’s why we see this loneliness epidemic.
YE: Maybe we need more friction—making things a bit less easy, so they have more meaning. Which is opposite of what tech usually does. Let’s talk about shame. It’s a powerful emotion that keeps people from reaching out. How do you see the relationship between shame, technology, and connection?
ES: Shame is tied to social desirability. If I’m depressed and only talk about that, people won’t want to interact with me. So the natural response is to hide it. We don’t want to be defined by our struggles, so we either isolate or compensate. That’s why some of the funniest people are also the most depressed.
But whether we isolate or compensate, loneliness creeps in because we’re not truly seen or loved for who we are. Being loved for a persona is just as lonely as not being loved at all.
AI today provides a safe, judgment-free environment to talk about these things and accept them ourselves. Then we can get advice on how to communicate them to others in respectful ways. Opening up to AI can be an amazing first step toward self-acceptance.
But the end goal must be human connection. If no one in your life truly knows you, shame will persist and loneliness won’t go away.
YE: Breaking that cycle is crucial. One way you tackle it is through art. You have a unique perspective on the intersection of technology and art therapy. How do these fields complement each other?
ES: Artistic creation has incredible benefits for mental health. Some argue AI art isn’t real art, but I’ve seen people heal through tools like MidJourney or DALL·E—people who never considered themselves artists before. Tech gave them a new outlet.
I’ve started running non-clinical AI art therapy group sessions. We discuss topics, identify feelings, and then create AI-generated representations of problems, memories, or aspirations. Art has been central to my own mental health journey, and AI adds inspiration and wonder.
It’s healthier to connect over AI art creations than curated Instagram posts, which often bring people down.
YE: Interesting—Instagram versus creating art. Do you think AI could play a meaningful role in art therapy, or is there a limit to how much tech should intervene in creativity?
ES: The nature of art is to push boundaries. If a banana taped to a wall can be art, why can’t AI-generated images be art? People once resisted photography and digital art too, but they became valid outlets for creativity.
I’m happy to use AI in mental health work because it works. But we need to watch for addiction. Spending all your free time generating images is unhealthy if it replaces human interaction.
With Conspicuous, we use art to foster meaningful discussions. The tech is available, and it can be used for good. But if painting works for you, keep painting. For others, AI art can be a great tool.
YE: Totally. I can’t paint, but I can use a computer—though I’ll try not to spend all day on it. Let’s step back to loneliness and mental illness. People often see mental illness and happiness as opposites. But some argue struggles can deepen joy. What are your thoughts?
ES: Complex question. I’ve had suicidal thoughts since an early age, experienced deep emotional pain, addictive behavior, risky behavior. My default state is pain. And I know there are listeners who get it. Many people die ashamed, never realizing they weren’t alone.
You can’t just “think” yourself into happiness. Life can be deeply hard—trauma, financial struggles, abuse. For people wired for self-destruction, it’s lifelong work.
But you don’t have to do it alone or in shame. I want to offer spaces where people can relieve anguish, make art, talk, laugh, connect. You’re not banned from joy because you’re depressed or traumatized. You can have issues and still feel hope, purpose, and joy.
In fact, joy may feel deeper for those who struggle, because it takes more effort.
YE: Got it. Complicated, but there is a path forward. Do you think people who struggle with mental illness can turn it into a driving force for positive change?
ES: Honestly, I think you must. If you don’t, suffering pushes you into harmful escapes. Mental illness doesn’t stagnate—you either work to improve or it worsens.
If you don’t sublimate it, give it meaning, use it to help others, it becomes a curse. But once you know what to do with it, it’s not so bad. Sharing my experience relieves others, which relieves me.
I don’t need to feel good all the time—I need to feel my life isn’t useless. I hope Conspicuous can be a place where anyone connects with their strengths and creativity. Fear is often the bigger problem than the symptoms themselves.
YE: The fear and shame—powerful forces, but acknowledging them helps. So, what drives you forward in your work? What keeps you motivated?
ES: Every day I speak with people who recognize loneliness as a problem—like you. We share the journey. I talk about my struggles, others share theirs, and we all feel less alone.
With Conspicuous, I don’t know if it’ll take off or fade. But every conversation, every space we create for people to talk about these issues, is never wasted. I used to live without purpose. Now I wake up with meaning, and that feels great.
YE: Yes—purpose drives us forward. If people want to support your work, what’s the best way?
ES: Join our Discord community. Join our AI art therapy sessions. Sign up as a beta tester. Reach out in any way. I’d love any support people can give.
YE: I’m sure this resonated with many. You’ve been brave in opening up. We’ll share the links so people can support Conspicuous. As we approach the finish line, I’d like to end on a high note. What gives you hope about combating loneliness moving forward?
ES: There’s so much hope. I meet people who’ve suffered emotionally but chose not to let it consume them. We’re not doomed. There’s more to life than pain.
In fact, the loneliness epidemic itself is hopeful—it means you are the friend someone is looking for. If you were the only one lonely, that would be bleak. But because so many people feel it, we can connect with each other. The solution is within reach.
YE: I think of that Billy Joel song, Piano Man: “They share a drink they call loneliness.” If so many are lonely, they can at least be lonely together. Thank you very much, Eli, for joining us today.
That was fascinating, and thank you to everyone listening. Follow TouchBase on social media or visit gettouchbase.com. Eli, this has been such a thought-provoking conversation.
ES: Thanks so much. I really enjoyed chatting with you—I always do. I hope others will join our conversations too.
YE: Thank you, and to our listeners: don’t forget to reach out, connect, keep the dialogue going. See you next time on Reach Out.
Trauma is more common in the workplace than usually considered. Kevin Gibbs who combines communication, organizational strategies, and employee wellbeing talks about empathy, IBS, technology, leadership and lots more in a wide-ranging interview. This is part of the TouchBase Reach Out series.
You can watch the interview here, or read the transcript, lightly edited for clarity.
Yohay Elam (YE): Hi everyone. Thanks for watching or listening. Welcome to another episode of the Reach out series where we explore the intersection of human connection, technology and mental well being. I’m Yohay Elam, founder of Touch Base, an app that tackles loneliness by helping foster meaningful connections. And today I’m glad to have with me Kevin Gibbs, who is a well being specialist for high achievers.
Hi Kevin, how are you doing?
Kevin Gibbs (KG): Thanks for having me here. Hi. I’m doing well, thank you very much. And you?
YE: Good, good. All good. Strong air condition here, can’t complain.
YE: So what you do sounds fascinating, especially as it combines communications, organizational strategies, employee well being. But could you start a bit by telling us a bit about yourself and what drives your passion for empowering individuals and companies?
KG: Sure. So I’m gonna have to go back in history a little bit for this. When I was a small kid, my parents divorced when I was five and that led me to overeating. And then at school I was teased for that and for being British. In Finland, a name like Kevin Gibbs was definitely not heard of when I was a kid.
And my humor was British based in Finland. Only I would say the past 20 years or so has sarcasm, wit and so forth being a thing. So I was not understood. I was a weird kid, as it were. So I really early on experienced a lot of trauma and that led me to developing IBS.
And in the end that became so bad that I was ready to take my own life. And that happened when my kid was half a year old and I shouted at him for accidentally bumping my head. I was in so much pain that I just couldn’t take that anymore.
And that’s when I realized I wasn’t the father I wanted to be. And I’d been. I was 13 when I wanted to become a father. So now as I finally had it, I was ruining it. That was my thought. Basically. I was not sleeping at all well. I wasn’t able to do my work.
I wasn’t the loving husband I wanted to be. I wasn’t the loving son I wanted to be. And I was failing in every way I could in my own opinion. So I was very close to taking my life. And then my half year old kid started laughing when I was crying with my then girlfriend.
And then I realized I have to do something because I have to be here for the boy. He deserves a father. So that basically started me on my well being journey. And I started doing anger management. I started learning emotional freedom techniques, schema therapy. I started learning everything I could from PubMed, that’s published medical journals about IBS, sleep, so forth.
And I trained to be a personal trainer, massage therapist, neurokinetic therapist. I basically fixed myself and now I’m helping others. So that’s my story and that’s my passion because I realized that if you can go from being so badly in shape that you cannot live anymore, that everything that you eat makes you hurt, that you hate yourself as a person, to having virtually no symptoms and being able to help others, being a good father.
I’m in a really good relationship nowadays, different lady but, but still a wonderful relationship. And if you’re able to do that switch, then you’re able to do switches for virtually anyone who has some kind of trauma. I might not always be able to do that for everyone, but it’s possible.
And that really inspired me. So then working from individual basis. So I’ve worked with massage therapists, I’ve coached experts, I worked with parents, high achievers, leaders, semi pro athletes, parents all over the place. From that to realizing that, wait, I can only treat one person at a time, which I love doing.
But how about if I could do more? How about if it could change a company the way they work and that could change all of their employers lives. So if you have like 150 employees and all their lives change, that’s massive.
If you can influence a few people in the company and change the what’s called company DNA then it’s felt everywhere. I see it when companies where the spirit of the founder, even if the founder is not involved in the company, still influences the workers for good or for bad.
And I think that if you can touch few people then you can make a difference.
YE: Definitely. Just look at Richard Branson. I mean that guy is so happy. He’s, if I remember right, dyslexic. And because of that he’s got empathy for people who have difficulties in learning or difficulties reading. And he takes that into account in his work. And what I’ve read about it, what I’ve seen is that he really cares for his workers and that changes company culture.
And is he doing well? Are his companies doing well? Yes, very well.
YE: We had a minor laugh here and I want to circle back to what you mentioned about your child laughing. Is laughter also a part of what you’re doing? I mean, helping people.
KG: Actually not only in terms of helping people. This is a good question by the way, very good question. I wanted to be a stand up comedian at one point. And the only reason I didn’t do that was because of the childhood teasing. So I of course felt that I am no good.
Nobody likes me. Only my family likes my humor. And only later on did I realize, no, actually my humor is university like, it’s just that I went through a bad patch. So maybe I’ll do that later on. But what I have noticed is that when I coach individuals, particularly when I’m dealing with really, really tough traumas from their childhood, and that’s kind of my specialty, dealing with those.
You have to have some humor now. You need to be able to read the situation. You know when to be frivolous. Exactly. But I haven’t had a single client who, when I’ve asked for a testimonial, hasn’t said one of the best things was that we could laugh even when we’re talking about bad stuff.
So I think laughter is definitely a medicine. But you do need to know the dosage and where to put it.
YE: Like with, with every medicine, I guess. Yes. Being the right doses. Okay, let’s talk about communication. You communicate with your clients and have the occasional life as well. Communication is at the heart of what you do. In a world where we have so much miscommunication and it leads to stress and disengagement.
Some of the things you already mentioned. How can companies use communication to empower employees and to foster a more positive work culture?
KG: Well, that actually circles back to mental well being first. So if you think about communication, the communication that most people tend to do is transactional. So I need that, give me that. And we often forget that we need to look at the emotions. I mean, sure, if you want a coffee, it’s not that big of a thing.
That’s a transaction.
But even then you would preferably not say, give me coffee is, could you please give me coffee? Or I would like some coffee. Could you please make me some, you know, something kind. But when you start thinking about communication through emotion and through active listening, then you realize that behind the sentences there’s an actual core issue or want or need.
So let’s take an example of where a colleague, for instance, would say, you still didn’t give me the paper. Right. You realize, okay, they want the paper, that’s the transaction. But the reality is they are feeling anxious about something.
Right. They’re projecting it to you. Perhaps it was your fault, perhaps you were supposed to give it earlier. But let’s say there’s a two week deadline. You’re thinking to yourself, there’s two weeks. What the heck? Why are you shouting at me as two weeks? That’s a defensive attitude that is very easy to go to.
And that stems from them using judgmental tone or language or posture in their body. Right?
YE: Becomes confrontational.
KG: Exactly. So now if that happens to you, then you have to start thinking, okay, what is the actual issue? They know that if I give the paper in two days time, they still have virtually two weeks. There’s not a problem. So that must mean there’s something else. So you can use active listening.
Now, active listening is not only hearing the words, but hearing the emotions. This is something I think every leader needs to understand and every person, basically anyone, should use this if possible. So then you could go like this. Okay, I understand you need the paper, and I hear that you’re anxious.
Is there anything else I can also help you with? Not just the paper. Is there something else that’s giving you a lot of workload and maybe they’ll get a bit defensive, maybe not. You have to deal with that as it goes along. But let’s say they say, well, I’ve got a lot of stuff going on, then okay, you’ve hit the nail on the head.
It’s not necessarily the paper. So then you can try and help them figure out how to deload while at the same time ensuring that they understand you will get the paper to them. Sort of like deescalate the situation instead of going, hey, you’ve got two weeks still, man, give me a break.
Because then you’re getting a fight, you don’t want that. And that’s just between two people. But that works in a team too. If the entire team culture is empathic understanding, active listening and non judgmental and nonviolent in their communication, you will preempt a lot of issues. And if issues do arise, you can de escalate really quickly.
And I think that’s probably the most important thing you have in conversation, no matter your level in the hierarchy.
YE: Got it. It’s even sounds like preventative medicine of trying to de escalate before things escalate further. You said non judgmental. Does it apply always being non judgmental or are there points, I mean a company, for instance, does many companies do retrospectives at the end of the sprint, at the end of a quarter, a month or whatever. They look back, what did we do? What did we do well, and we can repeat and what we didn’t do well. Is that a point to be judgmental or what’s your opinion in general about judgmentalism, if there is such a term?
KG: Well, it works maybe in a real world or not it works. I would say never be judgmental in any case, but always be factual.
A simple example would be if two people are talking with each other and you go, you said this and that did that, that’s a judgment. You know, it is your fault for saying this. A non judgmental way is, and this is still factual, when I heard you say this, it made me feel this.
It’s not that person’s fault. It’s just that this is the feeling I got. It’s the exact same message, but through my feelings. Now if you’re looking at retrospectives of like, okay, past quarter, we’ve done this or whatever, you wouldn’t say, okay, past quarter, everything went well. But John there didn’t do his work. John sucks. No, that’s horrible.
But you could say, for instance, this and this thing went well and we had issues in this department which were caused by this and this and this thing. You’re not telling any particular person that you are bad at this or you’re horrible, this or you did some mistakes, but you can point out that mistakes were made.
Now that doesn’t mean that in one on one you can’t talk about mistakes being made. But even then it’s like, okay, so you did this and this happened, not you are the reason why we failed. It’s small nuances.
YE: Yeah, it makes a difference. Instead of closing the door on them, you open the floor for John to express his case.
KG: Exactly. And that can actually, if the company culture is such that everyone feels safe, which this non judgmentalness will usually help in a lot. But if everyone feels safe, then they can say, well, you know, I had a lot of family issues and I didn’t talk about them. I should have, I should have asked for help.
Then you go, okay, look, John, that’s fine. Just let’s figure out how we can get you to ask for help next time if this happens again. Problem solved basically.
YE: It’s a much better way. In general, I find that stating facts and talking about tasks or things to be done, whatever you want to call it, is better than saying something bad about somebody’s character, which is the most judgmental way.
Just to follow up on that, are there any specific communications frameworks that you can recommend for organizational excellence?
KG: So I mentioned one already, actually, I mentioned both, I think. But we’ll recap here. So active listening, definitely. When you listen to anyone don’t just listen to their words, listen to their emotions and recap what they’ve said.
So for instance, if someone—let’s go again, the paper thing. Someone says that you still haven’t given me the paper, then the recap would be, tell me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you’re pretty anxious that you haven’t got the paper and you can’t get working on it. Tell me if that’s true and if there’s anything else I can do to help you.
You’re already being empathetic, you’ve heard the actual core issue, most likely, then you move from there. If they say no, actually it’s fine, it’s just that I’ve got this, then you can deal with that.
But another one is—well, I love this one. This is my favorite one: non violent communication. It’s absolutely brilliant. So I’m gonna actually have to go back here for you to understand why I love it so much.
When I was in my first relationship where I got the kids, wonderful lady, we had really good communication for the most part. But both of us had our own traumas, as is usual. And we used words that were sometimes judgmental or sometimes sort of like assuming. And I began reading a book called Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.
YE: I read that as well.
KG: You read it?
YE: Yeah, long time ago.
KG: That taught me so much. Ironically enough, not about women, but about me. I began realizing, I actually do react to that. And I react to that as well. Like, what’s going on? This was like 90% me this book basically. And that’s why I suggest everyone read it. It’s a really good book that got me interested in communication.
So time goes forward and I find a book called Nonviolent Communication. And that explains why I reacted to the things that I reacted. So Men are from Mars gave me the what and Nonviolent Communication gave me the why and the how to deal with it. That is definitely something everyone should try and use.
Now if you follow it word for word and as a script, it can become disingenuous and mechanical. But the basic framework is really clever. You apply active listening, you apply emotional understanding. So you try and figure out is this what you’re feeling. Then you apply non judgmental and that’s okay.
So when you said that thing because you felt this, that made me feel like this and that’s why I reacted like that. And the other person then starts understanding, okay, it wasn’t my fault. This is triggered by something that I’m feeling and his reaction was triggered by something he’s feeling. So it makes it much more logical and actually takes away the emotional defenses.
And it works in personal relationships, in family dynamics, between friends and at work.
YE: Great. Okay, talking about work. So it seems like employee well being is becoming quite a priority in many organizations. What are some of the holistic strategies companies can adopt to genuinely improve well being rather than just ticking a box of “okay we’re doing that as well”?
KG: That’s a very good question and actually it’s maybe a bit more complex than it seems from the get go. A lot of companies do have some well being initiatives. They might have something like a gym at work. They might have some yoga now and again, they might give extra holidays, they might have something like a standing table.
But then they might lack some really core things such as—is our communication clear? If you don’t really know exactly what you’re supposed to do, it’s quite stressful. “What am I exactly supposed to do?” Then you have to start asking for more and more questions to clarify that.
And if the company culture isn’t pro-questions, then you might feel like, I can’t really ask this. So then you just try and do your best and get stressed out whether you’re doing it well or not, and get burned out over time because you’re just thinking too much about what you’re trying to do.
So that’s one thing—make sure your employees know exactly what they’re supposed to do and if they don’t, that they feel safe enough to ask you. And that’s where the non judgmental, nonviolent communication is priority. Because if they come to you and say, “Hey, I tried to do this, but I’m not really sure exactly what I’m supposed to do,” and you go like, “This is your job,” that’s the last time they’ll ever ask you anything.
YE: Fruitful answer.
KG: Exactly. They will never ask you anything again. And then they give you a job that’s either somewhat close to what it was supposed to be, nowhere close, or just half bummed. I’m not going to say the other word. But you know, people burn out. They can’t be bothered to do their job well. And so that’s what’s going to happen very easily.
So that’s one really important thing. Another one is just simply ask people, “What do you need to feel well?” You can have anonymous questionnaires. As simple as that. It works easier if there’s like 10 employees—you can just ask everyone, “Hey Michael, what do you need?” If you got a thousand, it’s a bit more difficult. But then you can have questionnaires that can be anonymous.
Then you get some basic ideas that look, out of a thousand people, 87.7% want better facilities or they want a psychotherapist at work or something like that. If you can provide that, you’ve just provided something for almost all of your workers that they really will enjoy.
And another thing, combining technology and well being at work, not necessarily AI—because AI therapy is a bit iffy in my opinion. You really want to have a human, at least so far. But something like gamification.
So gamification may not be a term for everyone that they’re familiar with. Most people have played some games at some point and they give you a lot of dopamine when you get levels, when you get through whatever task it is you’re supposed to do.
So how about gamifying the tasks, gamifying the health? You have different levels, you get experience points and you get some small perks, whatever. Nothing fancy, maybe. But you can have a leaderboard of like, let’s say YE is the best runner in the company and he gets whatever he gets for that. And hey, Michael has improved his sleep by 50% and his work morale by 20%.
YE: Yeah, so celebrating successes as well.
KG: Exactly.
YE: Part of this gamification.
KG: Or even without gamification, you can do it without. But gamification can be a fun way, particularly when you start having more younger workers. Because let’s face it, the younger workers, they like gaming much more. So why not bring it to work?
YE: Got it. And follow up, how do you measure the success of wellbeing initiatives? You just, I mean, if it’s a big company, you can just run the same survey. Or are there other methods?
KG: Yeah, I mean that’s definitely one way. Particularly if the survey has two different things: what you need and what are you not getting. So in other words, particularly for anonymous questionnaires, it could simply be, how are you feeling at work? What do you like about your work? What do you not like? Do you feel you have the opportunities to do what you really want to do?
All those things will be particularly effective if they’re not anonymous so that you can actually help them. But the problem with non-anonymous is that if the culture really isn’t very open and very safe, people will not feel safe enough to give their innermost thoughts.
YE: Yeah, and the results will be super positive all the time. And like elections in not so democratic countries. And not useful information for improvement.
KG: Exactly. So you could actually have two different questionnaires. You could have an anonymous one and then the one where you put your name. So then you could, you know, see if there’s—let’s say John, I like John as a good name. Let’s say John says in the actual named questionnaire that he would love to work more on social media, for instance.
Well then you have a good hook there you can talk to immediately. Okay, what do you like about social media? Let’s see if you actually know your stuff on that. And then you might go, wow, actually John is way better at social media than he was in accounting. Let’s hire him for that. It’s better. Why not?
But then the anonymous one, maybe John has written there that, otherwise the job is really good. But we’re asked to always come to work at 8 o’clock and I have kids, so it’s a bit difficult. Then the company might go, oh, we didn’t even think about that. Okay, can we somehow give flexibility? Because they’re bound to not be the only person who has kids.
YE: Yeah, yeah, so that’s definitely one way. ADHD moment. Can you ask me the question again so I can answer better for the follow up?
YE: The question: how do you measure the success of well being initiatives?
KG: Thank you. Right, so one way I would actually say do not measure is pure KPIs because you’re not getting the reasons why. And the reasons why can be really important.
So let’s say somebody has had a really good run past year and then the next four months they’ve been doing sort of half and half. Now if you just look at the KPIs you’re thinking, well, they’re not doing well anymore, let’s kick them out or let’s have a really sturdy conversation.
But if you’re measuring workplace well being as well, maybe you can find out that, hey, you know, it’s not to do with the workplace, but their mother has just died and they lost their house or something. There’s too much going on in their life. Okay, how can we help then? You can actually go and talk to them.
“Hey, you know, we know you’ve had a heck of a hard time. How can we help you?”
YE: Yeah, come from a point of empathy which circles back to what we talked about before.
KG: Exactly. Because honestly, if you feel you’ve been empathized with, you want to be better.
YE: Right? That’s a great point.
KG: It’s basic human behavior. Humans will behave for the most part the way you expect them to behave. So if you are blaming them all the time, you’re basically telling them “you suck” and they will start rebelling against that one way or another. One way is okay, you don’t care about me, I don’t care about you.
Or another way is overworking. Then they work really well for a year until they burn themselves out and then you’ve lost a good worker.
YE: Yeah, you want to keep people on that right path between pushing the limits, but not having the limits pushing them. With empathy. It’s a motivating factor.
KG: Yeah. So measure success through not just KPIs, but how successfully have you actually as a leader managed to make your team feel safe around you so that they can share things and how successfully can you navigate their problems to help them become the better workers that they can be.
YE: Yeah, makes perfect sense. Let’s move on to another topic, but still related—well being but around technology. You know technology can be a double-edged sword. It depends on how you use it. When it comes to well being it can connect us or be overwhelming, all those notifications. How can organizations leverage technology to enhance well being without contributing to burnout? I think you already began touching on that.
KG: Yeah. Gamification is definitely one thing because if you feel that you are appreciated for what you’re doing, then that gives you more energy, more motivation and that technology can help you with that. One thing is also clarification.
So I used to work in one company that was actually a really good company but they had one big issue. They had literally about 30 or 40 different communication channels and groups. So you would have like five different video groups, ten different groups for social media, five different announcement communication channels. You’re going like how the heck can I sort this all out?
You have a CRM, you have Telegram based things, you have WhatsApp based things. Discord maybe, they didn’t have that, but you know, you have all of those. At some point you’re just going to get burnt out from the fact that there’s too much information all over the place.
YE: Yeah, you have to jump from one thing to another all the time.
KG: Yeah. And that’s multitasking. And we know multitasking lowers IQ by approximately 15 points and it lowers your focus by—I think, was it 20% if I remember right? Can’t remember for sure. But anyway, it lowers your focus by quite a lot. So simply making sure that the technology you use is there for clarity and purpose and helps in every way possible will do a lot.
So if you have currently, let’s say you have emails, you have an announcement channel, you have different kind of channels for different parts of the work. Try and see which ones you can combine, which ones need to be seen by which people. For instance, somebody who does video work doesn’t really need to be necessarily in the social media part. If they just make the video and the social media people edit it, they don’t need to be there.
So by doing that you can already help your employees focus better and feel better.
KG: Then there is, as we mentioned, the gamification. So you can give them—let’s say workers smoke a lot at your workplace and you know that if they smoke a lot that’s definitely going to affect both their mental and physical well being. So let’s say you make a 30-day challenge that you make a gamified version of with some technology. Every time they manage to have one day where they don’t smoke, or let’s say they reduce from smoking a pack to half a pack, whatever, they get a certain amount of experience points and they get to choose themselves what perk they get at the end.
So it’s really meaningful for them because let’s say your perk at the end is a week’s holiday extra per year. But somebody loves their work so much they don’t really want to go on a holiday. Well, it’s not motivating for them. But if for them it’s like, hey, you can choose that or you could for instance, choose that you could get an extra five therapy sessions for physical therapy because we know your knee hurts or something like that. They go, yeah, fine, this actually will help me, this is nice for me. So something that motivates them. That can really help a lot in motivation, in work well being, particularly if those things also just make them more well being.
You know, if their knee works better, they can walk better at work, they can get to work better. If they get on holidays with their family, then they can have more meaningful time with their family and they can feel more recharged.
YE: Yeah. So it’s something that is personalized to them.
KG: Yeah.
YE: And you mentioned meaningful time and technology. Well, what I’m doing at Touch Base is something to foster meaningful connections. And at the workplace, how can we ensure that technology fosters genuine connections within the teams? We talked about the company and the employees and also the communications with all those endless Slack channels. But how can we foster also better connections within the workers, within teams?
KG: That’s a very interesting question because first you have to define what does better mean in this case? So do we mean more efficient? If that’s it, it’s pretty simple. You can have technology that is so easy to use that people can write some basic stuff there and it writes exactly what they mean. It’s preemptive writing, makes it quick, makes it fast. Or even you can have like LinkedIn has pre-selected things you can just click, makes it really quick. Okay, but that’s emotionless.
So if by better we mean more meaningful conversations that allow for creativity, that allow for team building, that allow for feelings of oneness, of unity, then those communication channels that technology should prompt people to want that. So maybe it could be something like asking mini questionnaires within the chat program itself, like: “Hey, have you remembered to look at the positive things for today and is there anyone you want to tell about these positive things at work?” Or: “You mentioned last week to this employee or your colleague this thing and they answered that. Have you remembered to ask them about it again?” You know, prompting you to remember your colleagues. That can really build a lot of feeling of community at work.
YE: Or if I can paraphrase it and say it’s maybe technology that helps people feel they’re being heard.
KG: Yes, that’s absolutely brilliant.
YE: Thanks. Okay, yeah, let’s talk about—you work with high achievers. Talk a bit about leadership. Great leadership, of course, is key to organizational excellence. How can leaders balance achieving results which they’re judged for, of course, and also foster a culture of trust and collaboration?
KG: Let me think on that for a while.
YE: I think we touched on it.
KG: We did. I’m just thinking of how to word it best. I think you need to build mutual trust and not rely on micromanagement. Because if you rely on micromanagement, people will feel pressured. If people feel pressured, they might be able to give you something really good for some time, but at some point they will start feeling burnt out because they don’t feel they can make any mistakes. They don’t feel that they can relax at all or be creative.
So if you can build a company where the employees trust you and they have free range of how they want to do things and you give them deadlines and what you want to be done, but they can figure out how to do it, and if they feel that they can always ask you for help, for questions, for clarifications, without any judgments from you, then they will usually work far better because they want to be a better worker.
You basically want to be a kind person to that person who’s kind to you. That’s how humans work usually.
YE: So basic. Sometimes forgotten now.
KG: Exactly. I’m not religious, but “Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.” That is a brilliant quote, because that is how we work.
So if you build a culture of safety, of trust, then you can start trusting your employees better as well. And they will usually deliver on time because they know that they can make mistakes and you won’t shout at them. They’ll feel more at ease.
And if you think about what a leader is versus a boss, I think that kind of explains it pretty well. We have in English a saying: “She’s or he is born bossy.” Right? You don’t say they’re leader-like, they’re bossy, because bossy is negative. So if you’re all the time saying “You have to do that, you do that, you do this,” instead of “Let’s work together to get this done,” and then you micromanage: “Hey, you’re not doing that well, you’re not doing this well,” it’s not going to work. Not for long anyway.
And I can’t remember the company right now—there was a big animation company or maybe a gaming company that I remember reading about a while ago where in the interview they were asked, “Why didn’t this game get done on time?” And the answer was, “We were so badly micromanaged that whatever we did, the leaders told us we had to change it without even consulting us. And we’re the experts. They wanted it in a certain way instead of giving us the main goal. And then we had to redo everything dozens of times. And therefore it was late.”
You know, that’s not leadership. You’re hiring those people because of their expertise. So delegate, let them do the work.
YE: And if you don’t trust them, don’t hire them in the first place or fire them if needed.
KG: Exactly.
YE: Trust is so critical in getting things done or having a good, safe environment.
KG: Exactly.
YE: So I think you mentioned this. Micromanagement is one of the pitfalls. And would you say that also being disengaged—“I don’t know, it’s your job”—such an attitude, I mean, at the other extreme is also negative?
KG: Yeah. So that boils down to what I was talking about earlier, the questions. So if you just tell your employee that it’s your job, you’re supposed to know, and they can’t ask you any questions, well, that’s not going to lead very far. Because if they need to know something and they don’t know it and you don’t answer, then they can’t do their job.
So definitely you also have to be ready to take part in their job, even if you have hired them for that job. It’s basically a question of delegation. If someone can do what you know how to do or what you think needs to be done at, let’s say, 80%, even sometimes 70% as well as much as you need it to be done, that’s a good delegation.
That means you might need to help them with the 20–30% a little bit to guide them, that’s fine. You’ve still delegated 70–80% away from your work and that helps a heck of a lot.
KG: But talking about pitfalls, what you were just saying—I would like to circle back to that because I’ve been talking about empathetic, assertive, but still non-judgmental communication. That can be taken too far. So there’s pitfalls in that too. If we’re talking about emotions and communication, there are several different pitfalls you can have as a leader.
You can be too authoritarian. And that is sort of what you just said: “That’s your job, just do it. I don’t care. You’re supposed to do it.” Or it can be telling everyone what they’re supposed to do and not hearing any counter arguments. That’s a boss. In my opinion, a leader is someone who helps others lead themselves as well. That allows them to ask you questions and even criticize you in a constructive way, because you can make mistakes as well.
So that’s one really important thing. Being too vague—that’s a big pitfall. If you give too vague a goal, particularly if you don’t allow them to ask any questions, that can spiral down really quickly. Once I was given a job at one company to source some information from one group we were in. Then I realized I’m not even in that group. You haven’t let me in. Oh, okay. Then they put me in that group and I realized that the work they gave me was impossible because it was so vague.
There was so much information that I didn’t know what I was supposed to find. So I had to ask them four clarifications until I found out what it was I was supposed to do. That took me about a week with the communication back and forth. It could have just all been done really simply: “Hey, I’ve added you to this group. This and this and this information is what I need you to find out. Please view the group and ask me anything you need to know.” Done. Instead it dragged on. So that’s a big pitfall in communication as a leader.
Too soft—that’s a big one as well. Kindness and empathy are very important. But you have to have your boundaries. You can’t let people walk over you. That’s not leadership anymore. That’s being a walking mat. That’s not good.
YE: That turns the workplace into a social event where, “Okay, I’ll do it at some point. Let’s have another round of beers.”
KG: Exactly. Not getting anything done. So you have to be assertive as well. You have to have the boundaries. You have to be sure that everything gets done that needs to be done without micromanagement.
And this actually ties to workplace well-being in an interesting way, because I don’t think this is talked about enough: teasing at the workplace. It happens a lot. I have seen it, I have experienced it, and I have friends who have experienced it very roughly. And one big thing is the leader not doing anything about it.
So if you don’t have a safe environment, you don’t want to go and tell the leader. Even if you feel that you can tell the leader, if the leader goes, “Oh well, I’m sure it’ll be okay.”
YE: Well, great. Thank you. That was really helpful.
KG: Exactly. If they are like a wet rag, they’re too kind, they don’t act decisively, that is going to cause a lot of problems.
YE: Being disengaged.
KG: Yeah, exactly. You have to be sometimes the boss. Even if you are a leader, sometimes you just have to step in and go, “Hey, this is not okay.”
YE: Yeah.
KG: And I think those are probably the main pitfalls in leadership for me at least.
YE: Okay, thanks. Quite a few. And yeah, we talked about leadership and organizations and all that. Maybe move to a different area. We talk about meaningful connections. Do you see a role for techniques like mindfulness or others?
KG: If I hear you right, you’re asking if techniques like mindfulness will be useful at workplaces? Definitely, if implemented in a good way. But you can also perform mindfulness in a way that defeats the purpose entirely.
Techniques like mindfulness are supposed to be something you do for yourself because you want to. If you are performing mindfulness, you’re not mindful anymore.
Yoga is a good example. Yoga can be just physical exercise, you just go through the motions. But it can also be something called movement meditation, which is where you really do focus on your breathing. You focus on how your thigh feels when you’re putting most of your weight there. You focus on how you feel tensions in your body, can you relax your tensions when you’re in a certain pose that is still demanding. Then it’s meditation.
So you have to use the tools correctly. It’s like asking someone to saw a piece of wood with a knife. It can be done, but it’s going to take a while. So if I ask you to be mindful, to start focusing your breathing, but your focus is “This is so stupid, what the heck am I doing?” it’s not going to work.
Instead, you want to give different options for people. In a broader sense, you want to help your employees feel better, and you want to know what makes them feel better and what makes them feel worse. Do you have anxiety? Do you feel that you move enough? Are you able to switch off from work when you get home?
So if your employee says, “Well, I move a lot, but I think of work even when I go to sleep,” then okay, how could we help you with that? Figuring that out, then using technology and techniques and whatever you have for that.
YE: Right. So don’t try and put the square block through the round hole. Not a good idea.
KG: Exactly.
YE: For me, even if things don’t work well, if I have a bad day at work, but if I have a good relationship with my peers, if I feel this trust we mentioned, then it’s easier for me to disconnect from work. I know that the next day the same issue will still be there, but I can disconnect. Do you also see trust playing a role in how much you can disconnect from work when you go home?
KG: Definitely. Particularly if it is something that you can sort of offload to your peers or your boss. Let’s say you’re my leader at work, and I go to you and say, “Hey, look, I know there’s 10 minutes before I go home, but I just needed to tell you this thing with the client did not work out today, and I’d like to know if you can help me figure out what we can do about this.”
And then the leader says, “Yeah, hey, don’t sweat it. Tomorrow morning when you come here, we’ll work at it together.” That’s it. You’re going to be disconnected from it at home because you know your leader is going to help you. You know you’re going to get help. You’re not going to be thinking at home, “How the heck am I going to do this? My boss is going to be so angry. What do I do?” It helps so much.
KG: But that’s not the only thing that really helps. I’ll give an example of one client that I had. I can’t mention where they work because they asked me to keep them anonymous. But it’s a quite big Finnish company. They had I think €17.4 billion revenue in one year. So it’s quite big. He was a middle–high level boss.
His problem was exactly that—disconnecting at home. He was a wonderful father, wonderful spouse. But he said he had so much difficulty being mindful and present at home because he kept thinking about work. He would wake two or three times up at night, every night, thinking about work.
So what we did was treat some childhood traumas. There was a lot of parent-related trauma there. That made him overperform and overthink. Then we implemented 15-minute breaks at work every now and again. I said, “Don’t necessarily schedule them in because then you’re going to try and perform those breaks. Just allow yourself to have breaks. Tell your peers, your own leaders, and those under you that sometimes you will need a break.”
That gave him accountability. When you do habit changes, accountability is really important. That might be telling your friend, your family member, whoever. In this case, accountability at work. I asked him, “Do you feel safe telling your peers, your bosses, and those under you that you need breaks?” He said yes. So he told them.
At first it was choppy—five-minute break, then no breaks for the rest of the day, no breaks for two days in a row. But slowly he started having 3–4 fifteen-minute breaks. What he noticed was that his communication got better, his time management got better, his organization skills got better, his work stayed just as good and in some cases even better.
When he got home, he disconnected because he felt more at peace already and he knew how to delegate better because of the breaks. Telling his coworkers helped too—they said, “Hey, let us take a little bit of the heat, give us something.” So he delegated more. This gave him freedom.
Then he started doing exercise, which he normally didn’t do much. He had two small kids. I said, “Start doing things like lifting your one-year-old while playing with them, squatting with them, have fun.” He started getting more energy. The kids were laughing, he was having fun.
Then I said, “Take some skin-to-skin contact with your wife, start talking about things.”
It didn’t take long—four months. His work was going better, his family life was going better, his physical health was better, he slept like a log, and his stomach problems were gone too. He really needed breaks.
YE: So taking breaks here was one technique. But what stuck in my head from that story is the trust factor. Do you feel comfortable telling people around you at work that you need breaks? And the answer was yes. So yes, that’s a good place to start.
KG: Exactly.
YE: Yeah.
KG: Sorry, I’m going to add one thing. A lot of people don’t think about childhood traumas or any emotional traumas when thinking about work. Although I help people with nutrition, sleep, exercise, and so forth, it all really boils down to psychological well-being with all my clients—be it at work or individuals, teams or individuals.
Of course you can’t start talking about all your most vulnerable traumas with all of your workmates. That just doesn’t work. But knowing that you have traumas and dealing with them yourself—with my help or somebody else’s—is really important. It helps you perform better in every part of your life.
Also understanding that other people have similar traumas that they’re not talking about helps you be more non-violent in your communication, less judgmental. Because you can understand, “Every time I mention this kind of thing, he gets triggered. There’s probably something behind that. Let’s be kinder, let’s say it differently.” It can help a lot.
YE: Yeah, traumas accompany us all our lives. If we feel somewhat comfortable talking about some of them with people around us, we become more vulnerable, then the connections are much closer.
KG: Yeah, without a doubt.
YE: And also organizations can do something to foster these meaningful connections. Creating space with safety and trust.
KG: For sure.
YE: Let’s talk a bit about the future. There are always new techniques, new studies, new information. How do you see the intersection of well-being, communication, and organizational strategies evolving in the future? Are there any trends or innovations that excite you?
KG: AI is becoming a big thing. Not yet in therapy—it gives very bad advice sometimes. But long term we’re going to see companies “hiring” AI communicators, AI coaches at workplaces. If managed well, taught well, those can be a big help.
For example, let’s say you realize that every time you sit in your chair you have a huge backache. You might not want to bother your boss or maybe your well-being expert is busy. But if you have an AI coach, you can quickly write, “This is my setup, I’m having back pain, what can I do?” and get good answers. That can speed things up.
I think we’ll see that in physical well-being first, and later in psychological well-being when AI becomes more trustworthy. But I don’t think AI will ever fully replace meaningful human-to-human connections.
YE: Yeah. The example with the backache makes sense—it’s very physical. But what about a difficult conversation with a colleague? Would you use AI to prepare? Or is that problematic?
KG: You can, but it depends on how you prompt it. For me, being an expert, I can prompt it to communicate with myself in a useful way. But if you don’t know how, GPT tends to be overly kind. So I’d only use it for general prep—like “I’m going to talk about this issue, how can I prepare?” Not “I know he’s going to say this exact sentence, what do I reply?” Unless you prompt well with non-judgmental conversation techniques, it may not give good answers.
But give it a few years—it will get better and better.
YE: The pace is amazing. Maybe one day you’ll develop such a tool, with everything built in.
KG: No comment.
YE: But eventually, communication needs practice. Most of that practice should be with other people, not just with an overly supportive chatbot.
KG: Exactly. Use AI as a research tool—ask what books or videos to read, what kinds of conversations to practice. But the real work has to be done in person.
YE: Makes sense. Use AI to bring you a few steps forward, but when it comes to communication, it’s up to you to do the work. Okay, we’re getting closer to wrapping up. Do you have any advice for organizations or individuals on achieving excellence while prioritizing well-being—balancing progress without forgetting people?
KG: There’s a company I saw on LinkedIn, Marvel—not the comics, a recruiting company. They now work a four-day week. Their boss said everything improved after the first bumps. People are more engaged, happier, more productive. I think one reason is that they’re motivated to get a free day, so they manage their time better.
Another model is four-to-six-hour workdays. Research shows an eight-hour day is effectively five to six hours anyway. Some companies do Pomodoro-style work: 25 minutes focus, short break, repeat. After five hours, you’re done. Combine that with well-being initiatives, and it’s effective. But you have to plan carefully.
That’s what I do myself. I work from home and avoid multitasking. I’ve compartmentalized my computer—one account for work, one for fun. On one side, no YouTube; on the other, no work tools. So I can’t multitask. When I take a break, it’s a real break. That helps a lot.
YE: Good advice. Maybe I’ll try that divide-and-conquer method myself.
KG: Burn the land behind you.
YE: Right. Anything else you’d like to add before we wrap up?
KG: Yes, circling back to traumas. When workplaces think about well-being, they often focus on physical health: gyms, yoga, massage. That’s good, but clarity is also important—too many choices can burn you out. Even more rarely do workplaces address psychological well-being.
You might have a therapist at work, or an open-door policy, but I haven’t seen a workplace actively give space to deal with childhood traumas or emotional blocks. Probably because they’re considered too personal or non-work-related. But they matter.
Take perfectionism. It can come from parents or teachers telling you you’re never good enough. That drives people to overwork, burn out, or swing to the opposite extreme—“If I can’t be perfect, I won’t do anything.” At work, that looks like minimal effort. A traditional leader might fire them. But a progressive leader might ask, “You have the skills, why aren’t you using them?” If you uncover the trauma and help, that person might become the best worker you’ve ever had.
YE: Right. Triggering that kind of positive transformation is a goal for many leaders. On that optimistic note—Kevin, thank you very much for sharing your insights. This was a fun conversation, and inspiring to see holistic strategies that drive both personal and organizational success. Where can people connect with you?
KG: You can find me on LinkedIn—Kevin Gibbs—or on my website, Well-being Mastery Academy.
YE: Great. Thank you again, Kevin. I had a great time, and I’m sure our listeners will too. That’s it for this episode of the Touchbase Reach Out series. Subscribe on Spotify or YouTube, follow us on social media, and you can download Touchbase from the App Store or Google Play, or visit gettouchbase.com.
Exercising is critical for all kinds of health – and it can be done in small doses as well. Sonia Ponzo is a psychologist, behavior change expert, and founder of Outset Wellness, an ADHD-friendly platform that helps people stay active without overthinking it. In the interview below she talks about all those topics and more. This is part of the TouchBase Reach Out series.
You can watch the interview here, or read the transcript, lightly edited for clarity.
Yohay Elam (YE): Hi everyone, thank you for watching or listening. Welcome to another episode of the Reach Out series, where we explore the intersection of human connection, technology, and mental well-being. I’m Yochai Lam, founder of Touchbase, an app that helps people reconnect and strengthen relations with those they care about. It’s part of a bigger problem of loneliness.
And today I’m excited to speak with Sonia Ponzo, a psychologist, behavior change expert and the founder of Outset Wellness, an ADHD friendly platform that helps people stay active without overthinking it. Sonia brings a decade of experience in digital health and a deep understanding of the mind–body connection to everything she builds.
Sonia, thank you very much for joining me here today.
Sonia Ponzo (SP): Thank you, thank you for having me. Really happy to be here.
YE: Before we dive into Outset Wellness, I’d love to start with a broader question. Could you please tell us a bit about yourself, about your background, professional, personal.
SP: Absolutely. My name is Sonia Ponzo. I have a background in psychology and research mainly. And as Johan said, it’s mainly related to how we put together signals that come from our body and from outside—things like touching your skin, vision—and we put them together to get to a sense that our body belongs to us.
That’s what I focused on during my PhD. After that I moved to industry and worked in a lot of different startups. Mental health mainly, with a little detour in women’s health when I was Director of Science at Flo Health. And then about a year and a half ago, I founded Outset.
We’ll talk a little bit more about Outset in a minute. Personally I’m very into gardening these days. As any good ADHD, I went full hyper fixation on gardening and now my backyard looks like a garden center. There is basically no space for people to sit down and have a meal.
It’s all plants, but they’re giving me a lot of happiness. And the other big passion I have is running and exercising and we’ll talk a little bit more about that in a second.
YE: Running is also a big passion of mine and Outset Wellness was clearly built with a deep understanding of how ADHD brains work. As I said, I’m a runner addicted to running. And I know that for many, especially those with ADHD, staying consistent with movement is an entirely different challenge.
So what are the unique challenges people with ADHD face when it comes to staying active?
SP: The main one is that paralysis feeling of I know what to do but I just can’t bring myself to do it. This is something you hear a lot in ADHD. It’s referred to as task paralysis.
It’s one of the most core experiences and one of the worst because it makes you feel like you’re incapable. When in reality it’s just not having the right systems that support you to actually do the thing you need to do.
Linked to that is decision fatigue. The idea of what should I do when and why. Everyday things like: when should I exercise, because I also have to wash my hair, then I have to take the dog out, then I have to do this. The ADHD brain does that on steroids.
It’s always a lot of this, this, this and that. And what happens is you try to plan things but at the end of the day you end up not doing anything because you’re thinking about the different possibilities.
There’s also time blindness and letting the day get away from you. And the more you plan and fail to do things, the more likely you are to end up in guilt—shame, guilt, why am I not like anybody else who just gets up and goes for a walk?
YE: You get a feeling that everybody else is relaxed and does things on the flow and you have things whirling through the head.
SP: Exactly. It’s the feeling your brain never shuts up. There is never something as simple as go for a walk. It’s always an inner battle with all your voices, all your thoughts, all the possibilities. And that is exhausting.
YE: So what misconceptions do people have about motivation and consistency with ADHD brains?
SP: The biggest one—and the one that does the most harm—is the idea that you just need to try harder. Just be disciplined, just use willpower. But that’s not how it works.
And funny enough, it doesn’t even work for neurotypicals. Plenty of people struggle with motivation. The reality is you need to make things easier and reduce friction. That’s what helps.
And motivation isn’t constant. It changes based on context—your day, your mood, your stress. If your boss yelled at you, exercising feels impossible. If you’ve had a light day, it feels easy. Motivation is context-dependent, and ADHD amplifies that.
YE: I find that too—some days I feel I can do everything, then suddenly I get stuck on nonsense. So, how does Outset Wellness approach this differently from traditional fitness platforms?
SP: Outset syncs with your calendars—Google, Outlook. It reads when you’re busy and when you’re free. It also pulls in weather data to suggest whether you should go outside for a walk or stay indoors.
Then it plans activities for you based on what you said you’d like to do. And it adapts—learning from what you actually do, adjusting to your day, the weather, your behavior.
We also add social support—you can invite friends to body double. We try to match you with people who have similar exercise slots so you feel like you’re not alone.
And finally, every time you complete an activity, you answer a one-minute questionnaire and your plant grows. The plant is your visual representation of progress.
The idea is to give a tangible reward without obsessing over numbers, which can be risky for ADHD brains.
The philosophy is: no pain, no guilt, no streaks. Just small, sustainable habits you enjoy. If you miss a day, it’s fine. There’s always tomorrow.
YE: I like that. Something is better than nothing. And your gardening hobby ended up mirrored in the app.
SP: Actually the app came first. Growing plants in the app inspired me to grow them in real life.
YE: That’s great. You have a strong background in behavioral science. How do you translate complex insights into tools that work for everyday users, especially those with executive dysfunction?
SP: Always start with lowering friction. You can’t overhaul someone’s life. Change comes from tiny steps away from the current situation.
Get out of the “I should” mentality. Enable people to do what feels achievable right now. Even if they don’t build further, it’s still more than before.
And importantly, health is embodied. Our bodies send us signals all the time—fatigue, pain, restlessness—but we ignore them until they escalate into chronic stress or illness. Outset helps people reconnect with those signals and act early.
YE: I learned that the hard way with running injuries. I ignored the signals until I couldn’t move properly anymore.
Can you share a core behavior change principle Outset is built on?
SP: We’re developing a model that ADHD may not just be executive dysfunction, but a mind–body disconnection. Signals from the body—hunger, thirst, tiredness—are scrambled. People feel either too much or nothing.
If signals are unreliable, you make wrong choices—like going for a nap when you actually needed movement. Repeat that enough and you stop trusting yourself. That leads to feeling incapable.
So our core principle is rebuilding the sensing–interpreting–acting loop, starting with exercise.
YE: What tells you Outset is working?
SP: Outcomes. When users tell us they feel better, more focused, or even, “I can’t imagine life without Outset.” That’s huge.
When people share the app unprompted, with friends or online—that shows it resonates.
And resilience: when users drop off but return easily. One user hadn’t exercised for five years, built a routine with Outset, then got Covid. She thought she’d lost everything, but within a week she was back. Easy re-entry is a strong signal.
YE: Outset feels like it was built with neurodivergent users, not just for them. What insights did you gather from users?
SP: Not having to decide when or what resonated most with ADHD users. Neurotypicals say, “I can plan myself” (though they usually don’t). ADHD users found it transformative to offload the mental load.
Another is moving away from all-or-nothing thinking. Fitness doesn’t have to be the gym. It can be dancing in your kitchen, playing with your dog, walking outside. Anything is better than nothing.
And finally, tangible progress. Beta users asked for it—so we created the plant.
YE: How do you make sure the product feels supportive and not overwhelming?
SP: By not punishing people. If they skip, it’s fine. If anything, we ask why—so we can improve.
The plant grows no matter how small the activity is. That builds momentum without shame.
And socially, we’re expanding so people can connect not only with friends but with strangers if they prefer, eventually even forming community workouts.
YE: What have you learned about the role of social connection in sustaining habits, especially for ADHD?
SP: Body doubling is huge. Doing things alongside someone else—even virtually—makes it easier to start. It turns “I should do this” into “We are doing this.” That’s powerful motivation.
YE: Do you see opportunities to expand into more community experiences?
SP: Absolutely. We’d love to host virtual body doubling sessions, group walks, or events where people move together. Even with cameras off, it creates connection.
YE: You’ve worked in psychology and digital health for over a decade. What opportunities excite you most—and what worries you?
SP: On the positive side, wearables. They generate data—sleep, heart rate, activity—that can power preventative interventions.
AI also democratizes knowledge. Before it was WebMD, now it’s ChatGPT. That can empower people, though there’s risk.
What worries me is regulatory barriers. Safety is essential, but there should be faster paths for low-risk interventions. In the UK, waiting lists for ADHD diagnosis can be five to seven years. That’s unacceptable.
YE: Five to seven years—that’s staggering. People can build entire lives in that time.
You touched on AI. What role should it play in well-being?
SP: AI is excellent at pattern recognition. For example, I had gut pain recently. I tracked what I ate and used AI to adjust my diet quickly. What would’ve taken hours took minutes.
AI can make health management faster and more accessible. Combined with contextual tools like Outset, I see great potential for personalized plans.
YE: But how do we keep tech human, especially for vulnerable people?
SP: By optimizing for impact, not clicks. Build products with empathy, safety guardrails, and flexibility. Speak to people as humans, from humans. And never punish them.
YE: That’s been a theme today—don’t punish users. Sonia, if there’s one insight you’d like listeners to take away, what would it be?
SP: That ADHD—and many conditions—are partly about mind–body disconnection. Pay attention to your body’s signals. Check in often. Act before problems escalate. This applies to everyone, not just ADHD.
YE: What’s next for Outset Wellness?
SP: Expanding beyond exercise. Adding tools like deep breathing, sensory grounding, mindfulness practices. Sometimes what people need isn’t a workout, but a five-minute reset.
YE: And Outset was born from your personal journey. Where can people learn more?
SP: You can find me on LinkedIn or at outsetwellness.com. There’s a free seven-day trial—no pressure.
YE: Perfect. Sonia, thank you for sharing your science, perspective, and empathy with us today. And thanks to everyone listening. If you’re looking for support that meets your brain where it is, check out Outset Wellness—and of course, download TouchBase too.
Look for a Minimal Lovable Product (MLP) and not only the standard MVP. This is one of the insights from an interview with Tamara Saribekyan, as part of the TouchBase Reach Out series.
You can watch the interview here, or read the transcript, lightly edited for clarity.
Yohay Elam: Hi everyone. Thanks for watching or listening. Welcome to the latest episode of the Reach Out series. I’m Yohay Elam, founder of TouchBase, an app that tackles loneliness by helping foster meaningful connections.
Today I’m excited to be joined by Tamara Saribekyan, founder and CEO of Happy UI Design Studio and a product designer. Thanks for being here, Tamara.
TS: Thanks for inviting me.
YE: Before we dive into today’s topics, I’d love to hear a bit more about you. Could you introduce yourself and share how happiness became part of your professional journey?
TS: Sure. I come from a creative background with a foundation in marketing, which has helped me a lot throughout my design career. But the journey hasn’t been smooth—it’s been bumpy. For many years I tried to figure out what I really wanted to do, what sparks my soul.
That’s one of the big challenges many people face today. That’s what led me to dive deeper into mental health—to understand myself better, to clarify my goals, and to build a life that aligned with them. Eventually, I discovered my passion for design. Later, that interest naturally merged with the mental health field, but that’s a broader story we can explore later.
YE: That’s a fascinating background. Your work centers around designing for happiness. UX usually emphasizes efficiency, usability, and aesthetics. But you go one step further by focusing on emotional well-being. How can UX design actively contribute to creating more happiness in people’s lives?
TS: UX is often defined by usability, functionality, and aesthetics, but at its core it’s also about empathy—understanding people and psychology. At Happy UI Studio, we deliberately choose industries that impact people’s lives in positive ways—self-development, wellness, nutrition, yoga, meditation. These are aimed at helping people live happier, healthier lives.
Beyond that, we also apply design techniques that add joy to the user experience. But the biggest factor is choosing industries and projects where the outcome itself promotes happiness. That’s the foundation of our work.
YE: So you start by working with companies in sectors that promote happiness, and then layer on design principles that enhance it. Could you share some of those principles?
TS: One approach we use is based on the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. When we design a product, we look beyond functionality. We ask: Who is the user? What are their needs? What challenges are they facing? What meaning can we embed behind the functions?
A concept we love is the Minimum Lovable Product (MLP). Everyone knows MVP—Minimum Viable Product—but MLP goes further. It’s about not just functionality but delight—adding small details that make the user feel special.
That could be an engaging onboarding experience, a subtle animation, or a thoughtful interaction. In today’s world, where users are flooded with products, you need these sparks of delight. Otherwise, experiences can feel flat.
A simple analogy: getting a plain black coffee versus a beautifully made caramel latte. Both are coffee, but the second delights you. That’s what we aim for in design.
YE: I like that—MLP. And I’ll admit, I start my mornings with plain black coffee, but I do move into more “sophisticated” ones later in the day.
Here at TouchBase we’re tackling loneliness by encouraging people to reach out to loved ones. From your perspective, how can UX help combat loneliness without feeling forced or artificial?
TS: I think TouchBase is doing a great job in this space. Despite all the technology we have, people are lonelier than ever. Right now, much of the focus is on human–AI interaction. But I believe the real priority is human-to-human connection.
UX can play a big role in encouraging people to interact more meaningfully, to step out of their homes, and to connect with each other. Products that foster those experiences are key.
YE: Are there examples of UX solutions that successfully reduce loneliness and strengthen connections?
TS: One app we worked on suggested outdoor experiences based on personal preferences. Users could invite their friends and attend events together. It helped reduce the planning effort, while encouraging people to do something they enjoy with others.
Apps like Meetup or Eventbrite also do this well. They give lonely people easy ways to find activities and meet like-minded people. Technology works best when it gets people together in real life.
YE: So the key is that these apps bring people physically together. Online events are valuable, but there’s something different about in-person interaction.
TS: Exactly. Online events are helpful and time-efficient, especially for remote workers. But physical gatherings provide the deeper connections people crave. Humans are social creatures—we need each other to survive and thrive. Real-world interactions are essential for mental health.
YE: Speaking of the future—AI is evolving at breakneck speed. How do you see technology shaping happiness and reducing loneliness in the years to come?
TS: I’m excited about how AI is being used in the mental health field. I’ve tested some products that act like AI therapists or chatbots. For people who are completely alone in a given moment, these apps can provide immediate support and constructive conversations. That’s powerful.
But I want to stress that AI doesn’t have emotions. It can’t truly empathize or replace human connection. The role of AI should be to help us understand ourselves better, to learn, and to support us—but not to take over our lives. Balance is key.
YE: Right. There’s always a risk of overusing AI. And this ties back to UX design too—because when designing for emotions, there’s always the ethical question: where’s the line between encouraging use and manipulating people?
TS: It’s a delicate balance. In our studio, we test concepts carefully with real users before rolling them out. We want to see how people actually feel. It’s too easy to slip into manipulation.
Dark patterns are a big red flag for me—things like fake scarcity (“only one room left”), misleading sign-ups, or sneaky subscriptions. Those tactics manipulate users, and we’re firmly against them. Ethical design means respecting users’ choices and focusing on real value.
YE: That makes sense. Stepping back from technology, how do you see community and social interaction evolving in recent years?
TS: I think communities are thriving. As an expat in Barcelona, I’ve seen how many groups exist, both online and offline, where people can connect around shared interests. Platforms like Meetup, WhatsApp groups, even Facebook communities—these have become powerful ways for people to find belonging.
Both virtual and in-person events have value. Virtual events are time-saving and convenient, but in-person ones provide the deeper human connection that many people desperately need.
YE: Agreed. There’s something about being in the same physical space that makes a difference.
We’re nearing the finish line of this interview. I’d like to end on a hopeful note. What gives you optimism about our ability to combat the loneliness epidemic moving forward?
TS: It’s true that sometimes it feels like technology is pushing us in the opposite direction. But what gives me hope is that we’re still human. We still have agency. We decide how to use AI and other technologies.
If we use them wisely—to learn, to grow, to connect—then technology can be a force for good. It’s about combining our consciousness with the tools we have to build better lives.
YE: Beautifully put. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we wrap up?
TS: Just to remind people not to neglect their mental health. Work on yourself, invest in your well-being, and don’t put it off. Happiness is something you can nurture.
YE: Absolutely. Without health—including mental health—everything else becomes harder.
Thank you very much, Tamara, and thanks to everyone for joining us today. Follow TouchBase on social media—we’re also running face-to-face events to bring people together. Stay in touch, and see you soon.
